201: How a Small Email List Can Be Your Most Valuable Asset

[00:00:00] Even if you only have three people on your email list when you start, start communicating with them. It will build your sender reputation, build that deliverability score, and it will also build trust when those people say, "Yeah, I hear from this business every week. This is what they're doing. They're really cool."

So when they recommend their friends, their friends know what they're getting. They know that they're getting into a community that is of value to them and is going to [00:00:30] contribute to their lives Today's guest, Tanya Brody, makes the case for why a small but mighty email list can pay off big for your side hustle.

Whether you've got 100 subscribers, 50, or three, Tanya shares how you can start benefiting from and growing an engaged list. As an email marketing strategist and consultant, she's been doing it for more than 15 years. So to discover how to build your email list, even if you're starting from scratch, why [00:01:00] turning up in your community's inbox week after week matters more than its size, and how to craft emails that get opened and read, here's my conversation with Tanya Brody.

I'm Joan Posivy, and this is Side Hustle Hero.

Welcome, Tanya. Thank you very much for having me, Joan. It's lovely to be here. Suppose someone is emailing to their list, say, once a week. What would you consider to be a successful open rate? Here's the deal. Okay. [00:01:30] Open rates used to be the standard measure, because it was something that all of the email service providers could track fairly easily.

Right. Then Google, and Apple, and Yahoo all put a bunch of privacy stuff into their systems, and what that means is in some cases that person's ISP, or internet service provider, so Yahoo, Gmail- Okay ... Apple Mail, is opening that email for them, and [00:02:00] it's re- or rather, it's registering as open in your email service provider.

So there are debates about how good a metric open rates still are. Oh. I'm just gonna be- Really? ... totally upfront about that. Yeah. Now, yes, people are going to read your emails, and you will be able to tell when people read your emails because they will click on your link, or they will reply, and you'll be like, "Ha, that person read my email."

So there are ways to [00:02:30] verify that there are people who are reading your emails. However, if you want to use open rates as your sole metric, it's not the best metric anymore. However- A good open rate these days is somewhere between 18 and 20%. Okay. That's been the average for a long time. So basically, at least a fifth of the people who you email are actually opening.

Ideally, you wanna get higher than that, and the funny thing is, the smaller your list and the [00:03:00] more engaged they are, the higher your open rate. So having a small list- Right ... full of really engaged people is more valuable to you than having a list of 10,000, 20,000 people, like, maybe a quarter or a fifth of whom actually open, because otherwise you're just sending stuff out into the void.

Got it. All right. So if you've got a small list, that's okay. Yes, as long as that list is engaged, as long as you are actually emailing them once a week to- Right ... keep them [00:03:30] engaged in whatever it is that you are talking about. So if a person's finding that they are mailing to their list and they're not getting responses or people open- opening up the emails, what typically are the issues?

If people are actually opening your emails but not clicking through- Okay ... you need a stronger call to action, which is the thing that, you know, the reason to click on your button. And the thing in marketing, no matter what kind of marketing you're doing, [00:04:00] is answering the one important question on every consumer's mind.

That's your question, that's my question, it's everybody's question: what's in it for me? Right. Why should I care about this? I don't care if you're doing a, a, selling baby clothes at the local farmers market or you're running an internet, a, a web design service. Either way, you need to tell someone why it's worth it to them to click through.

Mm-hmm. So that is really the key. So for the, the person selling the baby clothes at the farmers market, it's, [00:04:30] "Hey, come out to the farmers market, or go visit my website to see what will be at the farmers market this weekend so you can reserve yours so it's not gone when you get there, 'cause these are selling fast."

Right. As an example. Yes. Or the person who's doing the web design is, "Hey, there have been some really big changes in how the internet is working these days because of AI, so let me do an audit of your website to make sure that your website is still getting seen [00:05:00] because of all these changes so that your customers can still find you.

And in fact, I can make it easier for the really interested customers to find you as opposed to people who are just maybe interested." I love the sound of all those examples, Tanya. Th- I, yeah, it really speaks to why I should open this. Clearly you've been doing this for a long time. But to even get to that amazing content that you just shared, I guess it begins with the subject line.

Right. Uh, am I even gonna be [00:05:30] bothered to open it or not? Right. Yeah. And subject line has one job- Its sole job is to get people to open your email. Okay. That's it. That's what the subject line- Okay ... has to do. Now, if you're going to do something crazy, you have to make sure that subject line pays off in the first paragraph or two.

If you say, "The world is going to explode tomorrow," and then you're talking about car sales- Yeah ... you need to explain why the world exploding tomorrow is relevant to car sales. 'Cause you need to come [00:06:00] in and buy your car this morning. Whatever it is, there has to be something to explain. I, I love...

Personally, I love using controversial subject lines or contrarian subject lines. It's like the, the whole... Like, everything that every other email marketer says is stupid. Mm. Just as a random controversial subject line. Within that n- first paragraph or two, I have to pay that off. I have to say, "And here's why.

Here's what I believe. Here's what I'm seeing." Okay. Yeah. So you [00:06:30] wanna make sure that f- whatever your subject line is, it smooths straight into your email so that people are like, "Okay, this makes sense now." Because we all get sick of the, the bait-and-switch subject lines. Oh, yeah. You know? Yeah. And then you open it and you're like, "This has nothing to do with the subject line.

Why am I reading this?" Reading- And that's usually when someone clicks either unsubscribe or sends it to spam. Okay. And that's really bad for your deliverability. Mm. Both of [00:07:00] those things. Yeah. Especially spam reports, by the way. Right. Here is my entire philosophy both in marketing and in business, and it is to serve first, sell second.

So your subject line, the job is for it to get that email opened. How are you serving that person right up front? How are you helping them understand what either their problem is and how you can help them solve it, which is serving, [00:07:30] or why what you are saying matters to them? Right. How that is going to help them achieve their goal or solve their problem or whatever it is that they are doing.

That is the key, because again, then you're both invested. Yes. You're invested in helping that person, and they are invested in going, "Oh, I can learn something from this." And just like your first example with the farmers market, you are serving that customer by saying, "These typically sell out. I'm only bringing so many with [00:08:00] me.

Let me know now and I'll set one aside for you." Exactly. It's... The serve first, sell second does a couple of things. A, it makes selling feel so much less slimy. Yeah, yeah. There are so many business owners of literally all sizes, I have encountered them at is at big corporations and as solopreneurs. They're like, "I hate selling."

It's like, yeah, I get it. It sucks. Trying to part someone from their money just feels gross. But when you come at it from an [00:08:30] aspect of, "I am here to help you. This is how I can help you." Yeah. More importantly, it makes the transaction easier on both sides, 'cause someone is like, "Oh, yes, you have the thing I need.

Here's my money," as opposed to, "I don't know about this. Just feel, makes me feel uncomfortable." Yeah. this service-first attitude, both in everything you write in your emails, even if it's just an email talking about how the farmers market went, [00:09:00] and why they're so valuable to your community, all of that is from that aspect of how do I serve you?

How do I serve you and help the world at the same time? Mm-hmm. Yes. I tend to work with a lot of conscious or mission-driven businesses, ones that are like, "Okay, so yes, this is what I'm selling, but I'm doing it because I believe this thing is a problem we all need to solve together." Mm. So bringing my community together- Yeah

to work on this thing, and whether it's I want to sell products that are ethically [00:09:30] made and ethically sourced, and that are, like, good for the environment- Yes ... well, that's a problem we can all solve together. Mm-hmm. My neighbor runs a refill station out of her garage because she wants to reduce the amount of plastic in the world.

Right. And I am so behind that. Yeah, yeah. I'm like, "Hey, I'm coming over to get my, my, my dish soap refilled." Right. That's her side hustle. And you're eager to tell people about it- Right ... because, yeah, because of- So- ... the why behind it, and what she's doing. Yeah, and that is the type of thing that serves people.[00:10:00]

Mm. She's helping me do something that I believe in, too. I hate plastic. Drives me nuts. Yeah, me too. Yeah. So... When a person is starting or building their side hustle, they have so many choices of how to connect with a prospective customer. Mm-hmm. Social media, paid ads, text messaging. Make the case, Tanya, for why email marketing is still important a- and worthwhile.

Okay. First of all, the statistics. Okay. For every dollar you put into email marketing, you can make back 36 to $42. [00:10:30] Really? That's a lot. Really? That is literally the highest return on investment of any marketing channel in existence. Done properly. Yeah. Do- done properly. Yeah. To be fair. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

However, the other reason I advocate for email marketing i- it's not just about making sales, it's about building relationships. So again, it's creating that community. It's showing how you serve. And it's a... It becomes a conversation. It may feel like a [00:11:00] one-sided conversation to you, 'cause you're the one writing the email and sending it off into the ether and hoping people actually respond.

Yes. But as someone who's been doing this for 15-plus years, I regularly get responses back saying, "That really helped me. Thank you." Mm. Or, "Oh my gosh, I can't believe that actually happened to you," or whatever it is. The answer is yeah, you are contributing. You are helping someone. Or yes, that happened to me, and this is how [00:11:30] I dealt with it.

things like that. It's you are becoming a storyteller and you are sharing with your community, but you're also building trust. You're building your likability factor. You're building your authority because you're sharing your knowledge with your community. Okay. It can't do that as easily in a text message- Mm-hmm

without spending a lot of money. Right. 'Cause text is by literally practically by the character. Email is an inexpensive way to connect with your ideal customers, [00:12:00] and to sh- show them that you are the one who has the solution to their problem or can help them achieve their dream. Mm-hmm. And to really build that relationship so that this becomes an ongoing thing, so that for that person selling children's clothes at the farmers market, they buy the onesie, and then they come back for that cute little dress or the cute pair of overalls.

Right. And then when their kid is running around, they need the toddler shorts and the T-shirt, and then when their friends have kids, they send them [00:12:30] to you. That's the way you build a business- Mm-hmm ... that can thrive long term because it's not just a one and done purchase. It's a, "Hey, let's keep this going long term.

Let's be in relationship. Let's be a community." And for that farmer's market example, you do- Mm-hmm ... have that pers- in-person interaction, so that's a great opportunity during that conversation when you first meet the person to capture an email address. Yes. So you see this weird thing sitting behind me.

This is a harp. [00:13:00] I used to travel the country playing at renaissance festivals, and then I joined a band, and we played at libraries, and Celtic festivals, and- Oh, my gosh ... uh, pubs and all that stuff. And we had a physical paper email list. That's how I started email marketing. And I would painstakingly go through all of those very poorly written words- Yeah, right.

and figure out what the person's name and their email address were, and I would enter them into a database, and I would email them based either on their zip code, 'cause we were touring around the [00:13:30] country- Okay ... so I wanted to let them know when we were in town- Yeah ... or a monthly email newsletter. And that's how I started out in email marketing, was just collecting those addresses by hand.

Yeah. And giving... basically telling people where we were going to be, what we were doing, when our new album was coming out. "Hey, here are our T-shirts. Hey, we're touring in your area. Where do you recommend that we show up?" Yes. You know, "Where... What's your favorite venue? Who should we contact?" And I just wanna emphasize, there's two parts to...

that you followed through [00:14:00] on. You collected the names, and then you actually sat down and did the work and emailed them. Yes. Because I have been to the farmer's market, and it was long ago. It was a new entrepreneur that was selling this, this ghee. Anyway, she had a great backstory, and I was talking to her- and mentioned a couple of things about her website, and then I signed up, and I've never received anything. Yeah. So there's that part. Everyone always asks me, "What are the biggest mistakes people make in email marketing?" And that is mistake number one, in my opinion. Mm-hmm. You collect an email address, and then you never say anything.

You never email them. [00:14:30] Or you have the lead magnet, the thing that attracts people to your website, to your email list- Okay ... and then they get the thing, and they never hear from you again. That's literally wasted money. Okay. It's wasted time. Whereas if you take the time to write that weekly email, even if that's all you do- Mm

you are building that relationship. Well, if someone is starting from scratch, how do they start building that email list? You m- mentioned the magnet. Mm-hmm. Lead magnet. The lead magnet. This is actually a, a [00:15:00] technique I learned years and years ago. It's still valid. It's still a really good technique. Okay.

Write down a list of 50 people that you know, whose email addresses you have, who you think would be interested in what you're doing. It's a longer term thing. Email them individually and say, "Hey, I'm starting this business. I'm gonna start an email list. I'd like you to be on it. This is what I'll be writing about once a week.

If you're not interested, reply and I'll take you off the list." Got it. And then [00:15:30] you create that spreadsheet of people who say no, and you take them off, and then you start with that list. And you email these people regularly once a week, and then you get in the habit, which is good, and you're strengthening your business, which is also good, and that's when you bring in the actual lead to magnet.

That's when you create the thing, whether it's a coupon- Okay ... or a informational sheet or a whatever e-book that people can download, and you [00:16:00] get people into your system. I actually have an entire e-book about how to do that, which I'm happy to share, share that with you just so you know, your people who want to start this- Okay

can download it, 'cause it's something you can do easily, and it's not intimidating because these are people you know. Okay. We'll definitely drop a, a link in the show notes for that. Definitely. Thanks. And here's the thing to remember is not all of these people have to be your ideal audience. Okay. Some of them [00:16:30] may know- Mm-hmm

your ideal audience, which is what you're really looking for. My parents are still on my email list. Yeah. They were on my original email list. They wouldn't dare unsubscribe. They're my parents. They... Every once in a while I get an email back, "I don't know about this one, it wasn't as good," or- Yeah ... "This one was really good.

I liked this one." And but because they read my emails, they share my information with other people. Yes. And those people join the list, or they become clients- Yeah ... which is really helpful. [00:17:00] Yeah. I have someone who was on that original list who 20 years later- emailed me and said, "Hey, I need your help."

Really? Wow. And she was a client for, like, three years. Mm-hmm. So you never know. Mm-hmm. And that's the best part about an email list is it's, it's, uh, full of people of different stages. There are gonna be the people who are like, "Oh my God, I'm about to give birth. I need the [00:17:30] onesie." All right. And there are people who are, "I know I have friends who might be interested in these clothes because they're organically made, or tie-dyed, or whatever." Right. Yeah. "And I'll share this with them." Mm-hmm. And then there are gonna be the people who are, like, the teenagers who grow up seeing the kids that they babysit in these clothes, and 'cause they think what you're doing is cool, they join the email list, and then suddenly they're adults and having [00:18:00] kids, and they're like, "Okay, now I need the onesie."

Right. A little bank of customers- Mm-hmm ... that you just continue to nurture- Right ... so that you've got things coming in regularly as opposed to, "I'm running a flash sale," and then you don't earn any money for another two months until you run another flash sale. So that's why I love email marketing is it's generative, and it can be constant- Yes

as opposed to extractive, and just, "Here, I'm doing this here. Here, I'm doing this here." Right. That's the other thing that bothers me the most about people emailing [00:18:30] is when they do the, just the buy my stuff, buy my stuff, buy my stuff. Yes. And they build that relationship first. Yeah. So those are my two big complaints, if you will, about people starting their email lists.

Well, starting with that initial li- list of 50, and then- Mm-hmm ... as you're growing it, part of the content in those emails, are you asking for... Like, in order to even determine what that lead magnet should be, are you asking, "What would you like to see more of?" Or suggestions, any- anything [00:19:00] like that- Yeah ... in terms of the content?

Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. Ask for feedback. Okay. 'Cause this does two things. It builds that relationship with your people- Yeah ... and gets responses from them, but... And so that's the human side. Yes. You're getting information that you need as a business owner. But it also does something on the technical side, which is when someone opens your email and they reply to it- Then all of the ISPs, the internet service [00:19:30] providers like Google, Yahoo, et cetera, they go, "Oh, this person wants to hear from this person.

They're responding." Mm-hmm. "I'm going to make sure that this person's emails always get through." Okay. And the more that happens, that compounds, and your, what's referred to as your deliverability score grows, so that as you add new people to your email list, the I- ISPs are like, "Oh yeah, I know Joan. Her emails can go through."

Okay. So- So periodically you still might end up, as [00:20:00] the recipient, end up with stuff in your spam folder even though you've replied to it, but you're saying generally the platform knows that, okay, this is a real person- Right ... and they're... Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well, what email platform would you recommend? So if you're just starting out- Mm-hmm.

Okay ... if you're just building your email list, I actually, the one I like the most to just start out with, and I'll [00:20:30] be honest, I haven't looked around at a lot of the new ones- Okay ... is actually called MailerLite. Yep. It's a, it's an easy platform to use. They have a free version that you can use for your first, you know, like 200 or 100 or 200 people, so you can just get the process going.

Okay. Now, as you wanna do fancier things like build that lead magnet and use all of their fancy things, yes, you'll have to pay, but it's relatively inexpensive. So that email list for my harp, my music stuff- Yeah ... still email it, and [00:21:00] I use ema- I use MailerLite for that. Okay. 'Cause I think it's like 10 bucks a month.

It's inexpensive, and for what I'm doing there, it doesn't have to be complicated. Right. Now, for all of my email marketing stuff, I use a platform called GoHighLevel. Okay. That's a lot more sophisticated. There's a lot of automation in there. There's a l- you know, it's basically, it's sort of what's referred to as one of the all-in-one platforms.

You can do just about everything on there, not entirely everything, but a- and you can connect a lot of stuff to it. MailerLite [00:21:30] has similar capabilities, it's just not quite as advanced. And what did you call the other one? High Level? GoHighL- Yeah. GoHighLevel ... Level, High Level. GoHighLevel. Yeah. I, I, it sort of alternates between those two names.

Um- Yeah. So just in a sentence, what does, when you say all-in-one, what like four, five, six things would that actually encompass? You can actually build a website on it, um, do all of your shopping cart stuff. You can run your CRM so you can do sales- Mm-hmm ... tracking, et cetera, and, and it integrates with a whole bunch of other [00:22:00] apps.

It's got its own built-in AI studio thing, all of it. Yeah. So it's not really just about email marketing or just about collecting leads. Mm-hmm. It's really about running your entire business. Okay. Hmm. And another good one that I really like is ActiveCampaign. Again, uh, GoHighLevel and ActiveCampaign are more expensive, I'm just gonna be honest.

Yeah. And they, I don't think either of them have a free p- a free option. Mm-hmm. But MailerLite does, and it's a good place to start. Sure. And eventually you'll grow out of MailerLite and into something else. But by that [00:22:30] point, presumably you've beg- begun to basically monetize your list- Right ... so more than pays for this- Subscription.

Exactly. I've heard you talk about nurture emails. What are those versus, like, an email blast? Okay. So essentially they're the same thing. Okay. The, it's... The nurture email is the thing that you send weekly. Email blast, broadcast email. For some strange reason, email service providers started calling [00:23:00] everything a campaign, which confuses the heck out of me.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because to me, a campaign is the thing that you set up that runs automatically. Your welcome sequence is a campaign, and that is, at the end of it, welcoming someone to your system, but it's also giving them a chance to buy something that's probably associated with your lead magnet. It's maybe something small, but it's getting them started.

Okay. Whereas a nurture email or an email blast, or however you want to refer to it, is literally nurturing. It is reminding people of your [00:23:30] existence, A, that's its main job. It's like, "Hi, I'm still here. Don't forget." And then it is nurturing that relationship. It's the giving part. It's the let me serve you part.

The sales emails, which are usually part of a campaign, at least in my old-fashioned world, are where you're selling or where you're saying, "Okay, this is how this product or service is gonna help you. This is other people who have bought it from me who say it's great. This is everything it does for you.

This is everything you get with it. Buy it." And you wouldn't integrate that [00:24:00] one into the weekly broadcast? You can sell from a weekly broadcast email. Okay. But you can't... I wouldn't ever do a hard sell. I would do a soft sell. Okay. And the other thing you can do is you can direct people to a campaign or to a new lead magnet for a thing that would then sell them something.

Part of the point of the nurture emails, you absolutely do sell from your broadcast emails, from your nurture emails. I do it all the time. [00:24:30] I actually put one out yesterday that was saying, "By the way, if you are having a hard time dealing with all of this, I can help with that." Okay. Yep. But it went to schedule a consultation.

Mm-hmm. Right? Right. Yeah. So I think that it's best to do a, a serve first and then sell second, literally layered in there. Okay. Yes. Um, as opposed to starting out with, "Hey, this thing is on sale." Right. Yeah. Now, do you want to do some of those to drive when you're having a flash sale? Yes, [00:25:00] but don't do them constantly.

Right. I like to do a mix of things when I send out my nurture emails in terms of where I send people. "Here, go do this free thing. Go check this out. Go learn about this." And also, "Yes, I'm having a sale." Got it. So. Yeah, so a little bit of both. We talked about open rate and click-through to a degree. What about the unsubscribe rate?

What's normal? What's normal, no need to panic yet [00:25:30] sub- unsubscribe rate? So I believe that the industry standard, as in where the email service providers will tell you that you may be getting in trouble- Okay ... is if your unsubscribe is higher than 1%. Okay ... and if it gets higher, I think, than 3%, like they literally email you and go, "Hi, are you okay?

Are you sending weird stuff that we need to know about?" Really? Okay. And, yeah. And at some point th- they actually cut you off. They say, "We need to close [00:26:00] your account down until you fix this." Wow. So just to be, just to be aware of that. Yeah, yeah. But honestly, if you're sending these emails that serve, people won't unsubscribe 'cause they wanna see what you're doing.

Okay. You know? But there's people out there who maybe have a very old list- Mm ... and want to re-energize it. Yeah. It's quite possible that a bunch of those people are no longer following this person or have a need for that, and there might be a steep [00:26:30] drop-off rate initially, wouldn't there? Here's the other important thing to remember about when you're reactivating old list.

Okay. You need to clean that list first because some of those email addresses may just be inactive. So how do you clean it? Without- Uh, you actually go through a list cleaning service. There are several of them out there. I think I use Never Bounce. Some of the email service providers actually have them integrated- Okay

or you can connect them. And what that does is it cleans out the old email addresses that have bounced several times, where someone hasn't opened anything in that [00:27:00] email address for, like six months. Maybe they were emailing from their work and, yeah, they got your emails at work and they don't open that email anymore.

Right. Maybe they just lost their password. Yeah. Can't remember how to get into that account. Why would you need that extra service? Wouldn't they just bounce back anyway, or this is an extra step so that you don't get your account closed? It's a bit of both. Okay. Actually, some of it is it will sort out the, okay, these email addresses are genuinely dead, just get rid of them.

We know this for [00:27:30] sure. These email addresses are suspect. I would seriously consider isolating these and running a re-engagement campaign. It's like, "Hi, are you still there?" Oh, okay. "Are you still interested?" And then these email addresses are safe. Keep emailing these. So it's an assessment tool as much as it is as a cleaning service.

Okay. So it gives you the chance to see what is actually working and what is not on your email list. The other thing to remember is even the people who have valid email addresses are not gonna open every email from you. So if you haven't emailed [00:28:00] them for a long time, they're not necessarily going to email you, open your emails ever again, and eventually you will need to sequester them and say, "Okay, these people are no longer valid."

I actually... That, that music list, I re-eng- reengaged that after 10 years of not playing. And there are people who re-engage right away, and literally emailed me back and said, "Oh my gosh, I'm so glad to hear from you." Yeah. "We heard you in Hawaii," or, "We heard you in Ohio. We miss you. When are you coming back?"

Aw. [00:28:30] And there are people who just entirely disappeared. Mm-hmm. And that's totally understandable. It was 10 years. Yeah, yeah. So just be aware that not everyone is gonna come back, but that's still- Mm-hmm ... a really good place to start. Right. It's still a really good thing to... a resource to have. That's one of the other really big advantages of email is you own that list.

Mm-hmm. Right? That is yours. Until someone says unsubscribe, they're part of your community. And s- social media's great, but it's a rented property. They can- Yeah ... [00:29:00] close down your account. The entire system can go down, or they can shut down the entire platform, and you can't do anything about it but go, "Ah, my people."

Whereas if you have your email list, you can pick them up and take them with you wherever you go. That means if you're changing your business- Mm-hmm ... if you're going from selling baby clothes to a, starting a non-profit foundation to help children in Africa- Mm-hmm ... you can take those people with you. And [00:29:30] some of them, yes, will drop off.

Some of them will be like, "Yeah, let's do this." Mm-hmm. So that's the thing to remember is it's literally an asset that you can have. Perhaps the most precious asset in your business. Mm. And it's worth treating it like that, because you wanna build that relationship. So because of that then, and something could feasibly happen to any of those platforms we've been talking about, do you also download a copy periodically so that you've got the list on your own hard drive?

Yeah. Okay. It's just a good [00:30:00] idea. And it's one of those things that I... when I do the list cleaning, I go through the list cleaning process, and then I look at my... and I remove all the ones that I need to remove, and then I download that fresh list so I have it. It's a good thing. Do it every six months to a year.

Okay. So in that building a list, you said start to 50. Can you really do something with a list as small as, say, 100 people? Oh my gosh, yeah, if they're engaged, if they're interested, if they're opening your [00:30:30] emails. Yeah. You can do a lot. And as I was saying earlier, a small, engaged list- Mm-hmm ... it's worth far more than the 20,000 email list where 15 to 20% of them open your emails.

So you want to keep that list clean. You want to cle- keep that list healthy. And even if you only have three people on your email list when you start- Start communicating with them because that will, it will [00:31:00] build your sender reputation, build that deliverability score, and it will also build trust when those people say, "Yeah, I hear from this business every week.

This is what they're doing. They're really cool." So when they recommend their friends, their friends know what they're getting. They know that they're getting into a community that is of value to them and is going to contribute to their lives. Right. So it's a really important thing to remember that you're building more [00:31:30] than just a business.

You're building something that is helping a lot of other people. Mm-hmm. It's a tricky thing because being the Side Hustle Hero, you've got so many things that you want to do and need to do within your business, and now it's, "Okay, now I gotta scratch out extra time to create this weekly newsletter." Yes.

But you're saying because it's something you own, unlike any of those other platforms, it really is something that should [00:32:00] be a priority. Yeah. People hire me to do it because it's hard. Yeah, right. Yeah. I'll be honest. What does the size of your email list look like these days? Honestly, my email list is tiny.

It's really... It's not that big. I think it's, like, 489 maybe. Yeah, and those are the people who are actually on my list who are receiving my weekly newsletter. Yeah. There are people who are on my list who aren't necessarily on the newsletter, but get other stuff from me. And, and, but I don't think it's more than 600.

[00:32:30] And honestly, like I've said before, you can do more with a tiny engaged list than you can with one of 20,000 people. Right. It used to be, oh, it's a numbers game. The more people you have on your list, the more you've got the, the chances you have to reach people. Mm-hmm. So it's important to remember, this is true no matter how engaged your list is, not every single person is going to open every single email.

Right. Not even my own mother opens every single email. Right. Yes. That's another reason to do something every week. Yeah. [00:33:00] Not everyone's gonna see everything. Yes. But if they get it the next week, oh, yeah. So when you look at my open rate, it's... I think it's at 27, which is actually good. Yeah. But if you look at my overall open rate, it's larger because not every single person opens every single email.

Right. So my overall open rate's probably more like 40%, 50%. And so that's an engaged list. That's a good thing. Yes. Yes. So you want people... Again, you're trying to attract your people. You're not [00:33:30] trying to attract all of the people. Yes. 'Cause all of the people don't necessarily need email marketing or baby clothes- Yeah

or web design. Yeah. And if you take a look at, if you literally just do the math of your business and say, what is it ultimately that I'm gonna be compensated for, and multiply- Mm-hmm ... that out, you don't need tens of thousands in a list. You don't. Yeah. Yeah, you really don't. Yeah. So that's why I advocate for even starting small and- Mm-hmm

a- writing right away because [00:34:00] there are people like, "Oh, I should wait until I have 100 people on my list." No. All those people who signed up for your list- They wanna hear from you. There's a reason they signed up for your list. Start now. So, and it gets you in the habit- Mm-hmm ... so that those first few emails, they may feel like a slog, but once you get used to it, once you're like, "Oh, okay," every week you start doing this, you start going, "Oh, I should talk about that in my email this week," and write it down when that happens.

Otherwise, it flies away. Yes. Trust me on this. But it's [00:34:30] really important that you keep that list engaged. That's the thing that matters the most when it comes to- Yeah ... email marketing. Thanks for that, because that's very inspirational for those with the smaller lists. Yes. If somebody has been collecting emails and they're about to craft their first one, what advice would you give them, other than...

We'll get to the welcoming one in a minute. So honestly, if you want the easiest way [00:35:00] to come up with the first five ideas for your email, your regular nurture emails, try answer the top five questions people ask you in your business. That's easy. For me, it's things like, how do I figure out what to write?

Yep. How do I make the time to do this? And how often should I email my list? Or am I gonna irritate them if I email every week? Okay. Yep. Those are standard [00:35:30] questions that I answer all the time. And that's one of the q- actually, one of the questions was the frequency. I was going to ask you about that.

Sure. Because in our examples we've been talking about weekly. Right. Is that something to shoot for? Is that one week? Yes. Okay. I actually recommend weekly for most businesses. Okay. Again, you are keeping yourself top of mind. For my music stuff, I email once a month because that's what I need to do. It's...

it doesn't need to be a weekly thing. For my copywriting business, yeah, it does. That's how I actually make my living. [00:36:00] My music is now, is now my side hustle. But the thing you have to remember is that this is more than just, "Hey, this is on sale." It's, "Here's a relationship we're building." Right. That's a key difference, actually.

Yeah. And if you think about it that way, then you're hearing from a friend every week, and how lovely is that? There are a lot of bus- like, one of my people I read, a woman named Ann Handley, who is part of MarketingProfs, [00:36:30] she emails every other week, and I love her emails. They are so funny. She's just so engaging.

And she does newsletter style, so it's like, "Here's an article, here's an article. Here's a thing. Go check this out." I tend to do one story. That's what I like to do every week. Okay. And it may be about the science fiction convention that I just attended, or it may be, like this week, about, "Hey, I get it.

Doing this is hard." Um, or it may be about the crazy things that AI is doing to our email, and how [00:37:00] Gmail has just introduced AI to your inbox and it's opening your emails for you. So, you know, it's... I tend to focus on one thing, just because I think it's easier for people. Mm-hmm. But a lot of the, "Here's an article, here's an article, here's an article" goes off really well.

Right, okay. So figure out what your cadence is. How often can you legitimately write? How often can you sit down and do this? If once a month is what you can do, great. Do that. I have a friend who, she's a tarot reader, so she does it every- Hmm ... quarter and [00:37:30] cross-quarter, if you will. Okay. She does it on the, the, the pagan high holy holidays.

I have other folks I know who do it every day, and they're sending genuinely interesting stuff so people open their emails. Right. Yes. Okay. So it's how often do you wanna do it? Okay. But consistency is the key- Yeah ... and finding that thing that is yours, whether it's the one topic or, like you said, multiple l- uh, links to other resources or other articles.

Yeah. Got it. Okay. Or a mishmash. One of [00:38:00] my very first paper newsletters, it always had quotes, it had a joke, it had a lot of different things in it. Interesting. Yeah. One of, one of my favorite newsletters is actually from Pat Flynn, and he always has a dad joke of the week. Oh. 'Cause he's a dad and likes telling dad jokes, you know?

Yeah. And it really br- it makes it yours too. Yeah. You're not following everybody else's formula. Yeah. And it's not sounding AI, but that's a different topic w- we might touch on. Yes. What, what should that very first welcome email consist [00:38:30] of? If you're actually doing the lead magnet, that first welcome email should deliver that lead magnet, and I actually recommend doing that in that first welcome email because it makes sure that people open that first email.

Don't give it to people on the, the s- the thank you page. Say, "Check your email. It'll show up." And then inside that email there's a button to download it. Don't attach it, it will get stripped out, and that will automatically mark your emails as spam. That's just one of those ISP things. You don't want [00:39:00] to bulk send attachments.

Instead, have that link or that, that button inside that email that then takes- Mm-hmm ... them to download. And basically, here's the thing- Here's how it's gonna help you. Hey, please white list this email address so that you get stuff from me in the future, and then that's your first email. Right. That's easy.

Right. Okay. And then after that, you introduce yourself. You talk about why it is what you do, and you do that in subsequent emails. I like my welcome sequences to be about four or five [00:39:30] emails long. Okay. And is that once a week as well? Um, a welcome sequence I do daily. Okay. And then once that is over, I say, "From now on, you'll hear from me every Thursday.

This is the type of thing I'll share. This is the type of thing you'll find out, and yes, I do sell stuff in this e- in these emails." In fact, that's actually my final email is to say, "By the way, I sell stuff." That's what an email list is for. Okay. That's what... 'Cause that's why people sign up to- Yeah ... is to learn how to run an email list.[00:40:00]

Right. And daily initially like that, aren't you afraid people unsubscribe because it's, "Oh, no, she's gonna be pitching me every single day," not knowing that it's only going to be for, say, four emails? So that's one of the expectations you set in that first email. Okay. For the next four days, I'm gonna send you something.

Mm. Okay. So look for those, and then at the end of every email you say, "Tomorrow I'll tell you blah." Okay. So you're literally priming people to open that email. And knowing that [00:40:30] you don't wanna miss- Yeah ... these four because this is what we cover. Right. Okay. 'Cause, and again- Yeah ... offer value. Mm. Give them something that's going to help them.

Right. Then they'll be like, "Oh, yeah, that email. I need to read that." And that n- initial, say, four email sequence and then you go to the weekly, would something like MailerLite free handle something pretty basic like that? Oh, yeah. Abso- Yeah? Okay. I th- yes, I think you can do automations. I haven't looked lately.

Yeah, okay. But even if, even if it won't do automations, [00:41:00] 10 bucks will get you the automations. Okay. And I think that's 500 subscribers, which if you're starting out, will be way more than you need. Yeah. Fantastic. What do you say to the person, because you are a copywriter and email's your thing, who says, "I just never know what to write," they've got writer's block?

I feel your pain. That's what I say, and again- Something to remember Mm-hmm ... it's you know all of the stuff you know about your business [00:41:30] because you live it daily. Okay. Yep. The people who are interested in your business have no clue. None. So whatever it is that you are doing is going to be of interest to them.

Okay. So I literally, I- two weeks ago, my email was talking about the science fiction convention I was at. All right. 'Cause I'm a geek. But then I related that back to community, and how email is your community. So what can you talk about that you [00:42:00] can relate back to what it is that you do? Okay. That's an easy way to break through the writer's block.

And sometimes too, we're, we're experts in our field, and we think, "Oh, everybody knows this stuff. This is too basic to even consider." Yeah. So then that's where I might turn to one of the AI platforms and say, "What are people searching for? What questions are they asking?" Yeah. Do you use that as well? Yeah.

Yep. Okay. Oh, yeah. Yeah. In fact- Okay ... speaking of which- Okay ... I actually created what I call my custom subject line generator. Okay. And it is run off of AI. [00:42:30] It's free. I encourage you to go use it. You guys, you have the link, so please put that in the show notes. What this is, it's basically you just enter some really basic information about your business- Mm-hmm.

Okay ... about who you are selling to, and about either what you wanna write about or just what problem you're trying to solve. Okay. You don't even have to put that in. If you don't know what you wanna write about, it'll just kick some stuff out for you based on what it is that you do and who you're selling to.

Right. And it's [00:43:00] designed to come up with something for your business. For the farmers market person, here are some ideas you can talk about for the people you're selling to, and for the web design person, here's something you can talk about. And it gives you a subject line and a writing prompt. So it's not just newsflash, blah blah blah.

It's here's a subject line that's designed for your business, and here's the writing prompt to go with it. These are the [00:43:30] points you should hit. Nice. And that just gives... It gives you three of them. Yep. That gets you started, and it helps. I think AI is a great, wonderful tool. Mm-hmm. I do not think it should be writing everything we send.

I just don't. No, because it's- I... My writing- Yeah. You have to. I just... I get so, ugh, disappointed when I get an email, and clearly it's, "Oh, it's not about this, it's about that." And just, like, all the [00:44:00] cliche stuff of AI, and it's like, "Don't waste my time." Yeah. And to be fair, we trained AI on things humans do, but for some reason, AI thinks those things should be done over and over.

Stop it. Yeah. "Quietly" has become a trigger for me lately. Oh my gosh. I've... And I've told it specifically, "Never use that word." Seriously. Yeah. I've had to tell mine, "Never use em dashes." I don't use em dashes in my writing unless it's [00:44:30] very deliberate. Yes. Me too. So don't use em dashes. But they all the time, it's oh my gosh, and unfortunately these are becoming markers so that people who are actually writing their own works are being called out for using AI when they really didn't.

Right. Yes. So that's why another big reason I'm an advocate of writing your own stuff. Mm-hmm. A, it's coming directly from you. Right. And B, it's s- it's human. It's gonna connect with other humans. AI [00:45:00] doesn't know how to do that yet, and I'm- Mm-hmm ... fine never knowing how to do that. Okay. Here is my big pitch for writing your own email every week.

You're the brains of the operation. Whether, whether someone is helping you or not, you are the person who knows what's going on. Mm-hmm. Therefore, coming from you, it's gonna be more genuine, it's gonna be more up to date, and it's gonna come out the way you want it to. Yes, and uniquely yours. Yeah. Yeah. Can I or someone like me do it?

Absolutely we can. [00:45:30] I am a, I'm a theater person. I can speak in anyone's voice. That's literally what I was trained to do. Yeah. However- When you do it, it means more to your community than when I do it. So even for my clients who I do all of their stuff, I either say, "Go through this and make sure it sounds like you," or I say- Mm-hmm

"You write the weekly email. I take care of everything else." Right. Because I feel like that connection is really what makes the difference- Mm-hmm ... in people [00:46:00] responding to you and your business, and wanting to help you and help you build your community. Yes, and wanting to support you and- Yeah ... share what you do with others.

Exactly. I'm gonna go back to AI for a second. Okay. Which is, AI is a brilliant tool. I do not discourage people from using it. In fact, there are people in my email writ- writing accountability group who use it to write their emails, and then we go through together and make it human. Yes, yes. Right? Yeah.

It's a good tool. It's great for a [00:46:30] messy first draft. But learn how to use it well. Mm-hmm. Don't just go in and say, "Write me an email," 'cause it will go, "Can you..." It will actually start asking you questions like, "What do you wanna write about? What are we talking? Tell me something about your business." Yeah.

And that's actually really useful. Use AI to do customer research. I love doing that. It's, "Here is my business. Here is what I do. Here are the people I think are my audience. Help me figure out who these people are and what [00:47:00] their problems are." Right. So that's really useful. Then you have information you can hand to AI and say, "Okay, here's my customer, ideal customer profile," right?

Yep, yep. Then you have something to write from and to write to. So if you decide to use AI to write your email, great. Get the messy first draft, and then go through it and tear it apart. Make it sound like you, because whether it's saying quietly three times in two [00:47:30] paragraphs- ... or it's em dashes or it's- Mm-hmm

not this, it's that. Yeah. There are things that, yes, we humans do, but if it's not in your natural cadence, people will notice. So honestly, I have had AI generate things, and then I will go through and rewrite the entire thing myself in my own voice. Right. 'Cause it makes me feel better. Yes. I have come up with things when I am writing, I'm like, "Oh, geez, I need to write up more about that," or, "That's a whole new business idea.

I need to put that aside." Yeah. Yeah, so [00:48:00] really don't just think about it as this thing I have to do. Right. But look at it as this is my chance to communicate with my people. And when you're actually sitting down to write, Tanya, are you thinking about, is it almost like a conversation with one person? Yes.

That's the other thing is we talk about email blasts or broadcasts, right? It's not. It is a conversation between you and another person. Okay. I write directly to you, Joan. I talk to you personally, [00:48:30] and I use you and me and I. I don't write in the third person. I write in the second person, 'cause I want it to feel like a conversation.

Yeah, yeah. That's my favorite, another favorite thing about email. Social media's great, but it's like trying to have a conversation in a club, right? There are all these things going on, flashing lights, noisy music, boom, people shuffling around you with drinks. You're like, "What? What did you say?" Whereas a, an [00:49:00] email is like someone literally inviting you into their living room- Mm

for a cup of tea and a chat. Yes. Nice. That's how your emails should feel. So what's the best way for our listeners to connect with you, Tanya? TanyaBrodyCopywriter.com is my website. Okay. And obviously w- I hope you will link to that in the show notes, but- Absolutely ... that is the easiest place to connect with me.

I would strongly recommend going to the newsletter on there. That is my weekly newsletter, the email- Mm ... marketing ecosystem [00:49:30] newsletter, and that's where you're gonna find the pictures of me in the silly costumes from the- The convention? ... con- convention. Yeah. And find out that, yeah, I used to be a professional actor and musician.

That is probably the, the best place just learn about me. Mm-hmm. But, again, I would encourage you to use the custom subje- subject line generator. That's something that you can use, and then that- Yeah ... will get you into my system where you'll get- Excellent ... that newsletter every week. Um, but the other thing is, go find people who [00:50:00] write emails every week, and look at what they're doing.

Yes. That's another reason to join other people's email lists. I realize that's stuff coming in every week to your i-a- inbox, and you have to read it. But go find the people who are doing something interesting, who have a, a weekly newsletter. See what they're doing. That's gonna help inspire you. Yes. You mentioned this, you touched on it before, but it really landed when you talked about if you go to my website, there you'll see me in these costumes, et cetera, because that's what you're writing about, [00:50:30] and you're taking things that are seemingly unrelated in your personal life and sharing that with an audience.

And to me, that really deepens the connection because c-o- of course in the email you do connect it- Mm ... to make it relevant. Right. But we get to learn more about you as a person, not just as a copywriter. Yeah, because, like I said, to me, this is about creating a community. I want you to know who I am. I want you to agree or disagree with what I believe, 'cause if you agree, you'll stay, and if you disagree, you will [00:51:00] unsubscribe, and I will be very sad for a moment, and I will say, "Thank you for self-s- you know, self-selecting.

That's okay." Right. Go find the people you resonate with. Mm-hmm. That's a good thing. I think that's something we as business owners feel. Like, we have to connect with everybody. Yeah. No. We need to connect with the people who are our people. There are billions of people in the world, billions of people in the world.

They're not all your people. No, they, they- You don't have to have them all for your business to thrive, whether you are a major corporation [00:51:30] or a side hustle. Absolutely. And focus on that group- Yeah ... that you really do connect with because if you try to please everybody, you'll lose them all. Yeah. I think Seth Godin- Yeah

was the one who said, "If you're trying to speak to everyone, you're speaking to no one." Exactly, yeah. Finally, what's your best tip to inspire others to start or grow their side hustle dream? It's fun. I- Good ... this is the third or fourth, maybe even the fifth business I've gone from a side hustle into a full-time job with, [00:52:00] and I love it.

Really? I honestly, I, along with being a professional performer, I used to be a professional costumer. That started out as a side hustle when I was a teenager- Mm ... and it became my full-time job. So it's fun, and you get to meet really interesting people. Again, in your committee, you get to create a community.

But I will be honest, there are days it feels like a slog. Yep. It just does. But you get to bring yourself to it. You get to bring [00:52:30] something that is uniquely you to your side hustle. Yes. So even if you are n- the fifth person selling baby clothes at the farmer's market, they're gonna be your baby clothes- Mm-hmm

and they're gonna be different than the other four people. Yep. And there's, again, a place for everyone. But it's something that you get to be proud of. It's something that you get to, to brag about to your friends, and it's a way for your friends to support you and going, "Yeah, my friend does this really cool thing."

That's right. So [00:53:00] it's a, I think it's, it's a gift you can give- Mm, mm-hmm ... as well as something to help yourself and your family, right? Yes. Yeah. 'Cause the goal of the side hustle is to earn money. Yeah. So do something you love. Mm-hmm. That way, when you have to go back to that regular nine-to-five, you have something that's filled you up.

That's right. Thank you so very much, Tanya, for your insider's professional look at how to craft emails that get open, and how to grow our list. And of course, thank you [00:53:30] for being today's Side Hustle Hero. My pleasure. Thank you very much for having me, Joan.

In addition to writing nurture emails weekly and serving first before selling, I really appreciate Tanya's mindset when she sits down to write.

She puts herself into the head space of writing to a single person, not broadcasting into a void. And also, she said, "We're building a relationship here. And if you think about it that way, then you're hearing from a friend every week, and how lovely is that?" [00:54:00] What a helpful attitude to begin your writing with, reframing, "Damn, I've got to get this email blast out today," into, "Hey, I'm gonna sit down now and write to a friend."

It seems so much more energizing to me, and I expect will lead to a much better result. Well, that's a wrap for today. If our chats are sparking your entrepreneurial spirit and providing valuable insights, consider showing your support by visiting SideHustleHero.com/support. That's where you can [00:54:30] shoot me a, a virtual coffee.

It's a real thing and a fun way to give the show a caffeinated thumbs-up. Thank you so much. In the episode description, you'll find a link to Tanya's website, as well as a link to the full show notes, which live at our website, SideHustleHero.com. There, you'll find a list of all the websites that Tanya mentioned, as well as a link to her custom subject line generator.

If you're enjoying what you're seeing in this podcast, it would be so appreciated if you would take a moment and add your comment, share the episode, and please [00:55:00] subscribe. It'll let others know that there's valuable content here to help them start and grow their side hustle. Thanks for watching, and hustle on.